Monday, November 2, 2009

Liberal Party President is asking the same key H1N1 questions as myself:

Questions being asked by President of the Liberal Party, Alf Apps, in a letter today.

GSK, a UK-based maker of the H1N1 vaccine, is the one and ONLY supplier for Canada. Why? Who made that decision? On what basis? In the US, there are five different suppliers. Shouldn't we have understood that we are putting the health and safety of Canadians at risk by putting all our eggs in one basket?

Who made the late decision to change the vaccine for pregnant women, and therefore disrupt the production schedule, which inevitably impacted the availability for ALL Canadians?

Questions posed by myself this morning:

Nor is it wise to run a heath problem of pandemic proportions by single sourcing your vaccine from one supplier. How dumb and reckless is that, to put all your eggs in one basket, with no alternative source of vaccine? Having multiple sources for mission critical supplies like vaccines is Supply Management 101. Meanwhile who approved and instructed Canada’s sole supplier to stop the production of vaccine with adjuvant in order to produce vaccine without adjuvant, in the belief that only pregnant women can safely take the latter and not the former (contrary to what the World Health Association is saying), and resulting in today’s real time delay in the manufacture of much needed vaccines of the adjuvant type? Was that a call made by a politician and made on purely political grounds? What studies and trials on pregnant women taking this vaccine exist to support such a decision, or was this decision completely knee jerk? Was this decision made knowing and truly understanding the effects such a decision would have on vaccine production at Canada’s sole source supplier? Or was that a call made by US authorities, who I understand are being supplied with non-adjuvant vaccine by Canada’s sole source supplier, and Canada’s supply of vaccine is being whipsawed and prioritized by by decisions made south of the border, where the US has no less than 5 suppliers of vaccine, and yet we have but one (GlaxoSmithKline), who answers to two masters, perhaps one more than the other?


Anonymous said...


You must have sent him the questions also then Brent!


CAITI said...


In fact, yes I 9:13 am this morning.

hey, more power to him. Inquiring minds need to know.

Just need to get the Liberals to start asking a few key questions on Harper's income trust and Harper falsified tax leakage claims and the devastating effect of that Harper policy on Canada and Canada's sovereignty and tax base.


CanadianSense said...

The media and opposition are looking for a scapegoat.

Where are the facts and numbers pointing to this "news worthy" story?

This is the second post that suggests the American decision to use five suppliers is better. It was NOT.

Review of the facts prove otherwise.

Americans Administration estimated 40 million doses ended up with 26 million.

No one has refuted 6 million doses are delivered. The negotiated priority list is estimated at 20% of the shipment already delivered leaving 30% outside the priority group to get the shot.

The operations were not prepared for the lines? Who is responsible for sticking the needle in your arm?

The negotiated sequence plan between the Federal Government and the Provinces is only a recommendation.

Division of Powers (Constitution) does not allow the Federal Government to over step their power.

Being a Liberal respecting the division of powers, constitution does not mattter apparently.

The media has created hysteria, the political opposition are using a serious issue to land cheap shots.

Seasonal Flu like Sars, H1N1 kills people it is a fact and blaming people for a reality underscores the desperation.

I hold everyone who is trying to score points.

Sars killed 44 Canadians and 800 worldwide, H1N1 estimates are 300 and 3000 worldwide.

The damage to the economy in jobs in lost tourism, the Olympics?

Next overblown hyped newstory?

Google Spanish Flu that was "REAL" pandemic.

CanadianSense said...

Correction they shipped only 20% above priority group.

Has H1N1 already peaked?

More details.

CAITI said...

Canadian Nonsense:

Evidently you are able to predict the future, when you state:

"Next overblown hyped newstory?
Google Spanish Flu that was "REAL" pandemic."


Maybe you should be Canada's Health Minister with that crystal ball of yours. This prediction of yours is as dumb as Harper's prediction of September 15, 2008 when he claimed that, in his belief, that if we were going to have a recession, it would "have happened by now"

Thereafter, came the largest recession since the second world war.


Let's hope your prediction on H1N1 comes true and this pandemic is mild, but let's not conduct ourselves as if you or anybody else can predict such an outcome.

Prepared for the worst, hope for the best.

Obviously you weren't a Boy Scout whose motto is "Be prepared".

tjeerd said...

Glad the Liberals or Obama were not running things. We would have had less then half of the 6 million out.

Do the Math, were over twice the rate of the US.

Axelrod has admitted it. They envy us.

Thank God for Harper.

CanadianSense said...

Impressive you ignored the numbers from Sars and the estimates for H1N1

to make cheapshots.

Were the numbers wrong? Want to put a public bet regarding H1N1?

Let me know if you have courage to back up your hysteria and scapegoat game.

Are you "nervous nellies" are not capable of making tough decisions.

CAITI said...

Canadian Nonsense:

Cheap shots?

Unlike you I don't make predictions and I don't place bets. Don't confuse that with an inability to make decisions.

What can be debated in the here and now, is whether the federal governments preparedness is sufficient or not.

If you are so crass as to want to bet on the outcome of H1N1, I suggest you call your bookie in Las Vegas.

CanadianSense said...

Not interested in being painted with a brush like the media in creating hysteria or manufacturing a crisis?

This latest flu is a serious issue playing games and pointing fingers does a disservice.

Are you denying the links and numbers from the health officials about the six million does already out?

Who is responsible for needle poking?

1)Province and local health officials.

Too complicated?

1% mortality rate of 33 million is 330 on wave 2

29 per million in AUST with NO vaccine.

For an Income Trust guy talking about tax leakage and numbers why are you avoiding them now?

You don't like where it leads?

How serious and widespread is H1N1?

H1N1 has been declared a pandemic by the World Health Organization, the first one of the 21st century. WHO reports that nearly 5,000 people worldwide have died this year as a result of H1N1; as of Oct. 26, this includes 86 Canadians. Patients who experience life-threatening complications do so as a result of lung problems that require them to be placed on respirators. The Australian experience this past summer revealed that 29 out of every million in the population got so sick from H1N1 as to have ended up in an intensive care unit and 15 per cent of these died. Extrapolating to the seven million inhabitants of Quebec, we might expect about 200 patients requiring intensive care and 30 deaths. This is just a guess, however, and the tendency for flu to spread more rapidly as we stay indoors over the winter months may make this worse if we don’t fight back with vaccine. Australia did not have access to the vaccine this summer.

So we are going to add "both" waves. Are you suggesting we are going to die 2x as much in Canada?

CAITI said...

Canadian Nonsense:

There you go again, making predictions:

"Are you suggesting we are going to die 2x as much in Canada?"

How many times do you need to hear the same thing before it sinks in....I don't make predictions, but on matters of public health, one should prepare for the worst, since pandemics seldom have dress rehearsals.

Have you called you bookie in Las Vegas yet?

CanadianSense said...

My post was asking you about the fearmongering and hysteria?

I have provided numbers we have AU who went through wave 2 no vaccines.

We have medical experts in the provinces, local trying to roll out the plan.

Dalton and Harper are both right, this gutter politics if opponents use this serious issue for cheapshots.

Supply is not an issue and execution is the responsibility of what level of government?

You keep avoiding a simple constitutional fact, any reason?

Anonymous said...

You actually think responding to these Conservatives serves a purpose?

They'd be praising their boy if he was found by his wife and children naked in bed with a dead girl and a live boy.

I mean there is nothing that Harper might do that will not earn their praise. He could be held personally responsible by every government and media outlet in the world for starting a nuclear holocaust and they would deny his responsibility praise his courage.

Dialogue is not possible with these idiot-bots.

All you achieve by trying is making yourself look naive and biddable.

Your choice of course but I'd rather shoot them in the barnyard myself.

Hinchey's Store said...

I think the Liberals are at it again - trying to make a scandal out of something the Conservatives are handling as well if not better than the rest of the world... I've got a few more comments on this subject here. Have a look if you'd like.

Hinchey's Store said...

How can you support a party that is so clearly grasping at straws?!?! If Canada were the only country in this situation, you might have an argument. But that is clearly not the case, and you can't blame the Federal Government for the totality of these delays.

JTeller said...

The public is confused because there are ten provinces with ten different health care systems. Within each health care system there are hundreds of health regions, each rolling out the vaccine differently. There has been no universal rollout and that is what is confusing Canadians, PERIOD. The federal government SHOULD have ordered the vaccine in June or July and they SHOULD have cancelled orders for the seasonal flu vaccine, but in terms of the rollout, that is the responsibility of the provinces, not the feds. Canadians are confused because they're getting mixed messages from hundreds of health regions across the country. Moreover, if the public is to blame, it's because the public panicked when an otherwise healthy child died of H1N1 last week. That scared the shit out of people. That said, you have to be a complete MORON if you don't understand the signs at every vaccination site across the country which CLEARLY SPELLS OUT who is eligible for the vaccine. Those huge lineups we're seeing on the news are made up in large part by people who are que jumping or NOT on the targetted groups list. What part of WAIT YOUR FREAKING TURN aren't people getting?

Dr Mike said...

Canadian Sense

You go on about everyone looking for a scapegoat , what a load of crap.

People are looking for answers here.

They don`t give a flying fig who is in gov`t--they just want to know why they are in line for 7 hours --they want to know how dangerous this thing really is--they want information.

This thing was screwed-up right from the beginning as the Cons spent the time & money on self-promotion rather than explaining to Canadians the ins & outs of a vaccination program of this magnitude.

If the logistics had been explained in detail , then none of this mess would have happened.

I do blame the gov`t for this neglect as they were too busy trying to get re-elected.

You appear to be playing the "how many deaths are acceptable" game here which is not where any of this should have gone.

The goal in healthcare is the "care" itself.

The goal is to learn from the present mistakes & elevate the level of this care next time out.

Dr Mike Popovich
Rodney Ont

PS---how about a name so that we can determine your level of expertise in this matter as you are just shooting blanks when you do not lend any credence to your what you say by your anonymity.

Big Winnie said...

The Federal government is/was negligent by not having more than one supplier to prepare the vaccines concurrently. It's not rocket science, folks.

Why was the order placed so late (August), when other countries had placed their orders earlier?

Another question that deserves an answer is why can't/doesn't the Minister answer questions directed to her in QP? Why is Baird answering her questions? I think I know, it's all about blaming others instead of accepting responsibility for their own failures.

Anonymous said...

But surely Dr. Mike knows that we have a myriad of health regions in Canada, each rolling out the vaccine differently. Each has a different communications plan and differing dissemination plans to boot. Surely Dr. Mike knows that within each health region, there are hospitals responsible for rolling out the vaccine. Surely he knows that within each hospital is a multi-layered management structure where the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. Everyone, Dr. Mike - EVERYONE is botching the rollout of the vaccine. EVERYONE has been caught with their pants down including those health care providers at your our local hospitals. Hmmmm... maybe talk to a nurse, sometime, eh? I mean you might be a DOKTOR but it's nurses who are bearing the brunt of this completely BOTCHED rollout where pandemic plans differ from hospital to hospital and from health region to health region. Maybe you should perhaps spend some time working with nurses before you start pointing the finger of blame at government. Yep, they botched it alright, but you know what? So is everyone including the physicians and management in our health care system. If there is any good that will come from this, it will be that perhaps Canadians will finally DEMAND that we fix health care, even if it means increasing our tax burden. Until then, Dr. Mike, check your partisan hat at the door and walk a mile in my shoes.

Dr Mike said...

Partisan , eh---give me a break---I don`t even have a political party at present--I am talking strictly from a medical standpoint.

The botch-up in this whole mess comes from a basic lack of information--wasting money on stimulus ads when lives were at stake was a near-negligent move---that money could have been better spent moving the vaccine out sooner & by making sure it was delivered to Doctor`s offices for administering instead of restricting this to long-lined clinics

We need some leadership here , not a bunch of sniping over politics.

Politics has no business in healthcare so anyone yapping strictly because of a political agenda , buzz-off.

Dr Mike Popovich
Rodney Ont

PS---Anonymous , how about a name so that I know whose shoes I should be walking in.

CanadianSense said...

Dr. M P

You and Big Winnie must have been away when they taught math.

You blame lines up on the federal government? (Provinces and Local Health officials are responsible)

Vaccine Approval and delivery to province is being executed.

There is NO shortage of vaccine. Big Winnie your example is simply a false point.

Simple math. 6 million units were shipped, in 8-9 days those supplies are used?

You fail in being honest. It is not a shock you want to distort or play games with this serious issue.

Each province and local health organization decides to follow the strategic plan negotiated between the federal/provincial governments.

Are the six million used gone if not supply HAS never been an issue.

Mike complaining the "rollout" has caused lines in a few cities or everywhere?

Mike what is your experience in strategic planning, chain of command, logistics, event planning?

The local health officials are now deploying extra "park" staff to remind non-priority groups to get out of those lines.

How many lines, 10-20 lines, where are those lines?

Did the urban/rural Health officials have the same lines with the surge of demand as a result of the Media aiding to the panic as two young people died?

Again another simple math question.

H1N1 is serious, seasonal flu is serious. Estimates of mortality is used by "experts" in determining how much resources are made available.

Seniors 65+ are not in the priority group, seasonal flu is being bumped as cases are not materializing in the numbers.

So again Mike the "numbers" tell a different story.

1) You bought into a elevated crisis to score cheap points.

2) Your bias, anti Harper income trust view is being used to exclude the FACTS.

CanadianSense said...


introducing EAP tv advertising into this serious issue is not partisan?

The Federal Government is NOT constrained in spending money like a private organization.

Do you have any clue on how advertising works?

What is your experience running a National Marketing Advertising Campaign?

Are you suggesting the Federal Government is not capable of spending money and running different "marketing" campaigns or is constrained by money? Really

The Liberal partisan talking point about advertising on EAP is related to how much or less is spent on H1N1 advertising being is now noted.

Opposition parties are upset about the "line ups too"

How many lines, where, when, how?

If some clinics closed on Sunday (supplies)how did they reopen on Monday?

Did a fairy show up and deliver suppllies early monday morning?

So it is a STAFFING, logistics problem? Having enough staff, security, to execute the "plan".

Who is responsible for staffing the local clinics, the Federal Government too?

Some local staff did not want to work this sunday or work late past 6 PM.

How many line ups and where? Next week will they exist?

Did the local officials get the correct staffing levels figured out?

Anonymous said...

No thanks, Dr. Mike. I prefer an anonymous post. I don't have a College of Physicians and Surgeons to cover my butt like you do and given that prrrrrrrrrretty much all doctors I've encountered view nurses as glorified ass wipers as opposed to equivalent health care professionals, I'll just keep my name off here for now thank you very much. But yeah, you're wearing your partisan hat and you're pointing blame at government when you know full well (I have to assume you know) that the provincial health authorities and health regions and hospitals suffer from their own communication problems in house that make the government's rollout of H1N1 vaccine a fart in the breeze by comparison. People are blaming government when two bloody departments in the same hospital can't even organize a frigging meeting to discuss their own in-house pandemic strategy. You know it and I know it. God, if Canadians only knew how @#$$@-up the health care system is from the inside, they'd lose their frigging minds.

There is nothing the federal government could have done other than order the vaccine earlier. You know just as well as I do that provincial health departments are responsible for communicating with the public on this key issue and part of the problem is that EVERY PROVINCE IS ROLLING OUT THE VACCINE DIFFERENTLY. Because of this, it means that everyone who tunes into the news is hearing about how another jurisdiction is rolling it out or who their target groups are and they're freaking confused as a result. That's not a federal government problem, that's a provincial and local health authority problem. But hey, you're not partisan? Right? That's why you're vociferously commenting on a partisan blog as opposed to pointing out the inside story of why this whole rollout was doomed from the start. EVERYONE. EVERYONE is to blame. The Feds, the provinces, the local health authorities, the hospitals, the departments that apparently don't know how to read an email saying when the next pandemic planning meeting is.

Dr Mike said...

Woweeeeeeeeeeee , the crap has hit the fan---the hire-ons have sure come out to play this time around.

Everyone , it is time to forget politics here , the healthcare system is in the dumper & all we are hearing are those 11 dreaded words , "I am from the gov`t & I am here to help".

Put the stimulus ads aside as we are all in agreement that most of that was money well-wasted.

Forget the line-ups as there is nothing we can do about them this time around.

Forget the fact that the vaccine should have been rolled-out end of August.

We will learn from these mistakes.

Healthcare needs to be reformed from the ground up in the way we deliver--a strategic shift in the ownership of the infrastructure must occur to move the basic costs from the provinces to the private sector thus allowing plans like OHIP to cover only the cost of the service & not the infrastructure of the care.

As I say , we will learn from the H1N1 experience some valuable lessons.

Let us just hope that politicians of all stripes will have the sense to "learn".

Dr Mike Popovich
Rodney Ont

CanadianSense said...

Where are the line ups in BC?

No cameras? Are BC resident better equipped at reading or hiding in the bushes to avoid those news cameras?

Hint did BC follow Alberta or Ontario mass clinics?

Hint nope!

Bad Federal Government for not forcing AB and Ontario to follow the BC example?

The truth and facts are getting in the way of your finding a scapegoat called the CPC.

You refuse to accept who is responsible for the strategic planning of mass immunization.

Do you want the Federal Government to take over this provincial and local responsibility?

Simple and fair question, you keep ignoring the math, and logistics.

Why are you resorting to calling people who see your posts as illogical or highly partisan paid-hires?

Can you refute ANY of the facts?

She attributes the problems largely to the surge in demand last week after news broke about the H1N1 deaths of two Ontario children, age 13 and 10 and both relatively healthy. At Mount Sinai, the immunization of health workers started last Monday with predictably limited turnout. Then the deaths hit the headlines and on Tuesday "things just went viral."

Read more:

Big Winnie said...

CS: I still stand by my statements that the CON gov't by refusing to have more than one supplier, ordering earlier, not communicating properly and then trying to blame everyone else (see CTVs QP for that) has caused this whole mess.

But when the Minister has to read verbatim, her speech and continually callls Madame Speaker, Mr. Speaker in the dabates last night is indicative of her incompetence and lack of trust by the PMO. As for her on QP, Why was Baird answering on her behalf? Why? The PMO doesn't trust her, that's why!

CanadianSense said...


I did not ask you correct your statemtent. I used to tell my children bed time stories when they were younger. Fairytales has a place in society.

Now back to the discussion on planet earth. The math does not add up.

Six million doses delivered to the provinces and territories did we use them all up?

Yes or No?

Yes link and show proof.

No because clinics are open on Monday and no lines imagine that.

Poor planning on setting mass immunizations by some local health officials or provinces who did NOT follow the recommendation was wonder TV and fodder for the opposition parties.

Removing the hysteria and hyperbole you are left with numbers and science. Two things most Liberals are terrified to discuss.

Big Winnie said...

Liberals afraid of Numbers and Science? I think not! You are way too funny...Your last comment really doesn't deserve a repsonse but hey, Let me put a couple of names forward: Flaherty and Goodyear...Now you tell me who's afraid of numbers and science?

I see the blogoshpere is filled with CON trolls tryinmg to do damage control on this issue. Why? Afraid?

CanadianSense said...


Polls are numbers right see anything in September you like?

Fundraising is down for the LPC third quarter?

Drawing any scientific conclusion about your hypothesis of Liberal outrage #45663A-123EE helping them regain power?

Need links for a proof is a proof or is a good proof, a proven proof enough for you? I miss the JC liberals at least he had some cojones.

I have lost track how many times a Liberal poster tells me the CPC are running scared in the past 4 years.

CAITI said...

Check this out:

H1N1 Timeline:

CanadianSense said...


you timeline source is partisan Gerrard Kennedy on stimlus is a valid source too ? Too funny.

CBC, CTV, try the MSM or include the NDP, CPC timelines

check out other timelines for comparison.

CAITI said...

Canadian Nonsense said:

"you timeline source is partisan. check out other timelines for comparison."

Care to provide a link or are you just blowing smoke?

Anonymous said...

What happens when and if the next strain is more lethal? Are you comfortable with the way the Clownservatives have handled this minor worldwide flu outbreak?

Personally I'm not, the light number of deaths is a blessing and has nothing to do with the way the vaccine roll-out has been handled.

In my line of work we train for the worst possible contingencies although it is unlikely these type of events will happen very often. The fact that human/equipment malfunctions and errors are rare doesn't mean I shouldn't be prepared. Ditto for the CONs you are defending.

It is unsatisfactory for the CONs/you to say, "not very many deaths therefore we don't need to be prepared." Next time the strain could be lethal and I have little confidence our current federal government could handle a big crisis with many casualties.


CanadianSense said...


you earlier claimed of NOT being partisan over H1N1 and your source is an opposition political party timeline.

Funny joke. I asked you to provide third party time lines

CBC, CTV etc or at least include the opposite side.

Did you ask me if I was blowing smoke?

CAITI said...

Canadians Nonsense:

I suggest you re-read your post.

You did not "ask me to provide other timelines".

You asked me to look at other time-lines, as if to suggest other time-lines are available.

It's not my job to make your point for you and research the validity of your arguments. which in the absence of supporting material are merely smoke.

Again, feel free to provide a link to other time-lines that might refute what is contained in the Liberal's time-line and do us all a favour......point out the discrepancies, if any.